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the pain inside is devouring you robbing

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you of joy and

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crippling your capacity to love

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i can't you're not stuck because you

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can't

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that's from the movie the shack which if

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you've seen it or read the book you know

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it does a pretty good job of exploring

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this

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impossible interplay that we're all in

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between

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consensus reality and the

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impossible to understand extended

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reality

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that seems to pop up now and then

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it's a topic that i explored with the

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extraordinary astral traveler jurgen

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ziva

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here are a couple of clips i was at that

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time

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a painting taught by a vienna surrealist

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and so that went on really well but then

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one night

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i i had extreme experience

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like a poltergeist thing i had this

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picture of a demon on my easel and it

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fell off and not only that but an

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ashtray

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which was next to it was cut i put it

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across the room

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and at that time i just didn't believe

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in anything supernatural and anything

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like that

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was totally out of my ram

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i stood at the shore of a ocean

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and the waves crashing in towards me

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were

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made out of light and each light

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each wave that came to me was a was a

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revelation

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was offering a higher state of

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consciousness

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and when i thought oh and and all the

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time this was happening i was

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in a state of total ecstasy

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and every time a new wave came crashing

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in on me there was another revelation

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not just a revelation but an even higher

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state of consciousness

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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as you know the show is primarily about

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consciousness

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and what i like to call extended

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consciousness

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that is all that strange but impossible

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to deny

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stuff that seems to be happening beyond

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space and time in these

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metaphysical realms and i'm really keen

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on people who are kind of

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undaunted in their effort to enter into

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those realms and try and

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bring them back and bring them down to a

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level of

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if not science at least a pre-scientific

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deeper understanding of them and that's

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one thing that i've always thought

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is so super impressive about the work of

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today's guest

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jurgen ziva and jurgen was on the show a

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couple years ago

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and then i've begun this kind of

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intensive

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investigation into evil not for evil

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sake but maybe as this

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lends to maybe giving us a different

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understanding of these extended

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consciousness realms

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and there i am in the skeptical form and

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i'm kind of babbling on and people are

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like

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you have to talk to jurgen go back to

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jurgen he

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has the most extensive and

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well-documented

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exploration through his out-of-body

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experiences

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into these realms and has really tried

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to catalog him and i was like

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hit up myself on the head i'm like of

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course this guy

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really has the good so a

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couple more things about jurgen that

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you're going to want to know

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he has some amazing books out

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multi-dimensional man

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vistas of infinity the 10-minute moment

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please go and check those out they are

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amazing

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he also has a incredible website

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multi-dimensional man

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where he features all sorts of

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interviews that he's done in the past

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and other

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amazing stuff and then as i was talking

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to jurgen before this interview

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and i was he kind of saw some of the

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questions in the place

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i was going he alerted me to the fact

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that he has this

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really great and i hate to just kind of

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be pumping all this stuff up but it's

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fantastic

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i've been i haven't even had a chance to

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watch

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all of these because it's been a super

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busy week for me but i'm going to watch

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every single one of them in this

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multi-part series of afterlife answers

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and again it's jurgen sharing what he's

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learned

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from these extended realms so

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this is a real treat this is truly one

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of the pioneers and one of the most

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i think important explorers

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i want to say researchers because in so

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many ways he is but will reserve that

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word for a careful scientific kind of

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way

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but explorers and documenters of

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extended consciousness which is really

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where where all the action

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is you're going sorry for going on and

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on thank you so much for coming on and

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joining me

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yeah thank you it's nice to see you

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again alex it's good to talk to you

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so folks who are jumping into this

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take a big step back for the uninitiated

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can you tell folks a little bit about oh

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you know cause like there's so much to

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you man i left out

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an amazing artist just an amazing artist

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commercial artist but now moved into

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doing other just fantastic works that

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anyone to look at and say wow that's

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that's really great stuff so please

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fill in the bar the bio there you're

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going to tell people

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what you're about how this came to be

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and

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what is going on in your collective body

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work

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yeah i've got it started off

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really when i was in my early 20s when i

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went to art school in hamburg

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and i experimented there was in the

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early 70s late 60s

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as you do when you are not student you

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experiment with all kinds of

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substances one of them was lsd

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at that time it was still legal

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so there was no fear attached to

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it that's the thing that's in the normal

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fear that oneness

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yeah that's the normal fear that comes

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to the experience

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but that was really an an event which

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uh catapulted me after about a year or

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so

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into a deep state of depression

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so in order to get out of it i somebody

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suggested to

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take up meditation so i enrolled on the

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course of

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tm and of course

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the depression went almost magically

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after about three months

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and then i became very curiously

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interested in

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in the phenomena of meditation i started

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reading up all the books that were

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written about it and so i started

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embarking on this which was a very

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fashionable

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pursuit in those days as it was a hippie

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movement going to india

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and i embarked on this uh adventure of

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meditation

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you know the essence of it so i even

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you know meditated for about sort of

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five

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six hours a day at one stage and

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nothing really happened except

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i got into some quite dark areas

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to the point that i started painting

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very dark pictures

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so what happened i tapped into my

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unconscious

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and out came these demonic

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creatures i was at that time painting

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taught by a vienna surrealist and so

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that went on

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really well but then one night i

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i had to sort of cut it extreme

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experience

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like a poltergeist thing i had this

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picture of a demon on my easel and it

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fell off and not only that but an

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ashtray

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which was next to it was cut i put it

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across the room

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and at that time i just didn't believe

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in anything

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supernatural and anything like that it

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was totally

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out of my realm but um i was

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totally fearful you know and uh

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so i i thought i give this whole thing

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up it's not

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getting me anywhere and it's negative

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and i don't like it

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so i i just returned to normal life

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but then six months later also

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[Music]

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time later i had a spontaneous peak

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experience

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and that was when i was having breakfast

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eating a sandwich i lost

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my connection with my

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hands and my breakfast and before

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long i was in a completely

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different state of consciousness i wrote

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about in my first book

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and i've reported about it but this

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totally changed my life

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not only did i experience for the first

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time in my life that i wasn't the body

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there's no such thing as me as i

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understood myself

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for about three weeks i was walking

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around in a space which was

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myself and then gradually i i returned

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but

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my life wasn't the same on top of that

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something was triggered i had a few

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months later i started having lucid

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dreams and then i had

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full blown out of body experiences again

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if anybody would have talked to me

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about it before i would have just told

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them they are sort of

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superstitious or lunatics

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so i didn't know what had happened and

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then i

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i started investigating into it and i

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found out yes it's such a phenomenal

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phenomena of art of body experiences and

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so it started from there

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i then became curious and followed it up

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and what followed after that was some 40

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nearly 50 years

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of inner experiences which

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unfolded as i

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kept meditating as i got deeper into it

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and it's still unfolding

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i mean when i wrote my book uh the 10

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minute moment

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in 2013 that for me was another

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breakthrough experience

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because at that time i was in a modest

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in in a sort of solitary retreat in the

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scottish mountains i was

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experiencing what i can only describe as

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a unity

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consciousness and after that i couldn't

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go back to my old sort of narrow

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self again it was almost the way i

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described it is was

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as if my cage made out of frosted glass

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had fallen to pieces and i couldn't put

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it back together again to see the

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things the way they were so after that

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um

288
00:11:55,590 --> 00:11:53,200
i wrote my book uh multi-dimensional man

289
00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:55,600
which was basically chronicling all my

290
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:57,920
outer body experiences i had

291
00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:00,639
right from the beginning and i just

292
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:02,079
wanted to

293
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:05,519
keep a record of it and make sense

294
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,880
and then the book came out purely by

295
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:10,639
chance because my daughter

296
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:13,440
found the manuscripts my diaries and she

297
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:14,880
became curious

298
00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:19,279
she wanted to read them and i said

299
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:21,040
and she said well you can't read your

300
00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:24,160
writing can you type it all out for me

301
00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:26,240
and i was curious because i hadn't

302
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,839
looked at them for a long time so i

303
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:29,600
started typing them out

304
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:32,880
and and sure enough out of it came a

305
00:12:37,509 --> 00:12:34,320
book

306
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:37,519
and that was the beginning and then in

307
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:38,720
2013 i

308
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:41,760
i wrote 10 minute moment and in

309
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:45,600
2015 i wrote the second out of body book

310
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:48,639
business of infinity now that followed

311
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:52,880
on from 2008 to 2015

312
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:55,519
seven years of very very intense

313
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:57,440
experiences

314
00:13:02,069 --> 00:13:01,040
all together i was about if i add up all

315
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:02,079
the time and the hours

316
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:05,519
i spent 60 hours

317
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,160
in alternative realities 60 hours which

318
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:10,079
is longer than most people

319
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:12,240
would spend when they have a near death

320
00:13:18,069 --> 00:13:15,120
experience also so i had plenty of

321
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:18,079
opportunity to actually do in-depth

322
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:20,320
investigation and research

323
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:23,920
and that was all combined in this

324
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,200
you know business of infinity there's so

325
00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:29,600
many interesting parts of that story

326
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:31,760
just have a million questions right

327
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:33,519
there but let me start with a couple of

328
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:34,880
those

329
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:36,320
one as we're chatting about just a

330
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:38,399
second before i hit the record button

331
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:42,320
i think the kind of intersection

332
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:45,680
of you as a visual artist and then

333
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:48,880
as an experiencer of this extended

334
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:52,160
auto body realm kind of thing is

335
00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:54,720
is super interesting you mentioned as we

336
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:55,839
began to roll tape

337
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,800
that you're really interested in virtual

338
00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:00,720
reality right now and you kind of have

339
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:01,360
the

340
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,120
green screen image but you're kind of

341
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:05,519
immersing yourself in different

342
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:08,320
uh technological realities which is

343
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:09,120
something

344
00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:10,880
we'll leave that to maybe the end to

345
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:14,079
talk about but i'm interested in the

346
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,360
what you understand to be

347
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:19,519
to me kind of a strange intersection

348
00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:21,600
between visual artists

349
00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:24,639
and the way that you chronicled this

350
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:27,440
like an accountant or like a you know

351
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:29,440
like a bookkeeper to go in and make

352
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,000
these

353
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:32,800
intensely detailed records and anyone

354
00:14:37,189 --> 00:14:35,279
who's tried to keep even a dream journal

355
00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:37,199
you know knows that that's a hard

356
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,040
process to stay on top of

357
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:42,000
and you did this for years and years

358
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:44,800
have you given any thought to

359
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:47,920
what drove you and and how that relates

360
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:48,240
to

361
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:51,519
this kind of visual artist sensibility

362
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:53,040
that you have is there anything there

363
00:14:56,790 --> 00:14:54,720
that's interesting to you

364
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:56,800
yeah the thing is of course i've been

365
00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:58,000
all always very

366
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:01,680
highly visual you know person i mean

367
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:05,279
um i see when i connect to

368
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:08,560
events or you know thoughts

369
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:10,720
you know i see them in a highly visual

370
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:13,360
way i mean

371
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:16,560
right from when i was a child you know

372
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:17,519
and

373
00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:22,320
write i started writing little stories

374
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:24,480
about the things i actually experienced

375
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:26,800
inside inside myself

376
00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:30,320
and and i i remember traveling through

377
00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:31,440
space

378
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:34,880
you know and

379
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:37,759
visiting other planets and of course the

380
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:39,279
visual stimulus was

381
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:42,639
absolutely overwhelming and i was sort

382
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,000
of fortunate enough

383
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:47,040
that i i could draw you know

384
00:15:54,069 --> 00:15:50,880
so initially um

385
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:54,079
when i first started trying to document

386
00:15:58,870 --> 00:15:56,480
these experiences visually i couldn't

387
00:16:02,310 --> 00:15:58,880
really think of how you can possibly

388
00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:02,320
represent this so i thought watercolor

389
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:04,320
is probably the best medium because

390
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:05,759
watercolor

391
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,079
is a has a luminosity

392
00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:13,040
which with which you can easily

393
00:16:17,030 --> 00:16:13,920
represent

394
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:17,040
the atmosphere like like the lights you

395
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:17,839
know so

396
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:20,160
i was drawn to watercolor and for a long

397
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:20,959
period i

398
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:24,160
i tried to paint in watercolor but they

399
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,320
were mostly abstract

400
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,399
because there was no way i could

401
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:29,920
reproduce

402
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:34,160
the visual abundance which i experienced

403
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:36,560
just with a few brush strokes but out of

404
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:37,759
the watercolor

405
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:41,839
you emerged a few shapes and things so i

406
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:45,279
i focused in on these and then i started

407
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:46,000
doing

408
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:49,759
um improvisational paintings

409
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:53,120
basically being in the moment and doing

410
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:54,800
abstract work

411
00:17:03,670 --> 00:16:59,040
and occasionally out of the abstract

412
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,680
paintings i did visions emerged

413
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:06,480
triggered by the color and the energy

414
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:07,280
you know

415
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:10,720
and and i suddenly was drawn into

416
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:12,240
a completely different state of

417
00:17:17,909 --> 00:17:14,480
consciousness which was

418
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:17,919
um aided by the fact that

419
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:20,640
the improvisational paintings happened

420
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:22,880
totally in the here and now

421
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:26,720
so there was no no agenda no plan

422
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:30,160
of doing that and this here now uh

423
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:33,919
gateway opened me up to enter into

424
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:35,120
completely different

425
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:38,559
kinds of realities and then one painting

426
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:41,520
in particular in 1980

427
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:45,600
when i got up in the morning to meditate

428
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,919
i looked at a painting i did the

429
00:17:52,630 --> 00:17:49,200
previous

430
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:52,640
abstract

431
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:55,760
but suddenly my vision was drawn behind

432
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:58,000
the brush strokes

433
00:18:01,669 --> 00:18:00,720
and i closed my eyes and i had probably

434
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:01,679
one of the most

435
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:04,720
intensive out of body experiences which

436
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:07,760
probably lasted a couple of hours but

437
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:10,400
before then years before that i met an

438
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:13,520
inner master a chinese guy who sort of

439
00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:16,480
who taught me basically you know guided

440
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:17,120
me

441
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:18,880
and you have to bear in mind i never had

442
00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:20,960
a teacher

443
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:23,120
you know as in meditation i never sort

444
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:25,039
of went down this route

445
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:27,919
but i had this chinese master who sort

446
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:28,640
of

447
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:35,510
riddles to solve and

448
00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:38,240
and at one stage he would communicate

449
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:39,679
with me via

450
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,440
symbols and he would

451
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,320
give me these symbols and the symbols

452
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:48,320
had the effect of

453
00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:51,520
raising my awareness and taking me into

454
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:54,000
a different state of consciousness

455
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:56,000
it's very difficult to describe but i

456
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:58,080
sometimes think of crop circles

457
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:59,760
you know what do they mean you know i

458
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:01,760
think there's something

459
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,240
from a higher dimensional level which

460
00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:06,000
cannot be communicated

461
00:19:11,669 --> 00:19:09,200
in in human language in words

462
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,679
and the effect of these symbols was that

463
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:13,679
they made a direct link

464
00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:15,840
to a state of consciousness which went

465
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:18,320
beyond the human mind that's how i

466
00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:21,520
i saw it and then

467
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:23,919
and then after when i looked at this

468
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:26,160
painting i was doing

469
00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:28,400
i closed my eyes i meditate i had the

470
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:31,280
most tremendous out-of-body experience

471
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:33,120
and in this out-of-body experience i

472
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:35,600
went through all the different levels of

473
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:37,840
consciousness through the astral level

474
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:38,799
the lower

475
00:19:48,789 --> 00:19:45,520
higher mind i saw

476
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:48,799
things which absolutely i've never

477
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:51,200
experienced and never seen before i

478
00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:52,160
could

479
00:20:01,669 --> 00:19:59,360
and form had sound had animation

480
00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:01,679
abstract swords they were no longer

481
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:08,950
incredible um

482
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:12,640
fascinating shapes which are difficult

483
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:14,640
to describe but the moment i looked at

484
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:16,480
these thoughts

485
00:20:22,149 --> 00:20:20,480
i could understand a whole philosophy

486
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:22,159
which was behind this

487
00:20:26,070 --> 00:20:24,960
these thoughts which would have taken

488
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:26,080
days

489
00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:30,080
to unravel so these

490
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:32,720
so the symbols which this chinese master

491
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:36,720
sent me was a gateway into this

492
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:39,360
super dimensional level which allowed me

493
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:40,559
to expand

494
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:43,760
into a way of

495
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:47,360
spirit or thinking or no a

496
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:51,760
state of mind which went totally beyond

497
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:56,159
our human limited way of reasoning

498
00:21:02,390 --> 00:20:59,600
and this this was um this was

499
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,400
an absolute revelation i wrote about in

500
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:04,080
multi-dimensional man

501
00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:07,840
but this was not the end then my master

502
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:09,200
sort of

503
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:11,440
came to me again and then he took me

504
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:12,720
beyond

505
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:17,760
this dimension of of the mind

506
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:20,400
when you say your master came to you in

507
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:20,799
this

508
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:23,840
uh extended realm master or

509
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:27,600
yes yes he was the the thing was he was

510
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:29,120
only a presence

511
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:31,840
he didn't have a physical but i could

512
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,200
hear him

513
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:35,840
i could uh be communicated via thoughts

514
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:38,480
he had a presence and he also community

515
00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:41,120
communicated his sort of sense of humor

516
00:21:45,350 --> 00:21:42,559
as we were

517
00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:45,360
exploring and then he then i went into

518
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:46,000
this

519
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:49,679
state of uh i i suppose samadhi

520
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:53,600
you know i suddenly found i found myself

521
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:55,360
in the

522
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:58,960
the way i i described it was i stood at

523
00:22:08,950 --> 00:21:59,919
the

524
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:08,960
in towards me were made out of light

525
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:12,880
and each light each wave that came to me

526
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:13,200
was

527
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:21,360
offering a higher state of consciousness

528
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:24,720
and when i thought oh and and all the

529
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:26,080
time this was happening

530
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:31,440
i was in a state of total ecstasy

531
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:34,240
and every time a new wave came crashing

532
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:37,360
in on me there was another revelation

533
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:39,840
not just a revelation but an even higher

534
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:42,320
state of consciousness

535
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:45,760
and this went on and on and

536
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:49,679
and the ecstasy in itself was

537
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:52,720
was not just a feeling the ecstasy in

538
00:22:58,310 --> 00:22:54,880
itself was a revelation

539
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:58,320
of a different kind you know so

540
00:23:01,669 --> 00:23:00,960
so this is so difficult to describe

541
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:01,679
because

542
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:04,159
it's not something that can be easily

543
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:05,679
processed

544
00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:07,919
through the mind because it's totally

545
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:09,840
beyond

546
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:12,960
you know but what one can normally sort

547
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:14,320
of make sense of

548
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:19,280
but the thing was i came out of this

549
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:21,200
and i think i only had about three

550
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:23,919
experiences like this in my whole life

551
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:26,400
which were of the same sort of intensity

552
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:28,960
the first one i mentioned earlier

553
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:31,600
um you know after having my sandwich the

554
00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:35,039
second one in 2018 and the third one

555
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:39,919
in scotland when i was on the retreat

556
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:43,120
and each time these happen

557
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:46,320
you know you you get to a new

558
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:49,600
state and of course

559
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:52,480
along the way there are different

560
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:53,200
different

561
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:57,440
um things that happened you know

562
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:00,960
little um jumps

563
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:03,039
along the way where you're sort of

564
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:04,000
opening yourself

565
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:06,400
up to other insights you know and i

566
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:07,360
think

567
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:11,840
my my focus on my

568
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:14,640
inner life my artistic focus going back

569
00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:16,240
to what you just said

570
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:19,360
is very much to do with going beyond

571
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,640
traditional reasoning

572
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:25,440
thinking it's it's just going beyond

573
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:25,840
that

574
00:24:30,549 --> 00:24:29,360
where language is no longer the

575
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:30,559
appropriate

576
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:33,600
means of embracing

577
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:36,080
the experience you know and i think

578
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:38,480
that's where the two things

579
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:41,840
joined oh that's that's

580
00:24:45,590 --> 00:24:44,640
really really fascinating on so many

581
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:45,600
levels

582
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:48,240
you know the one question i guess i or

583
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:49,760
area i wanted to

584
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:52,960
dig into a little bit is this idea of

585
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:55,279
mapping which you've really tried to do

586
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:56,080
so like

587
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:59,200
mapping these extended realms and the

588
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:00,320
way you do that

589
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,880
is really important because we need that

590
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,559
and then the second is the meaning

591
00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:07,200
part and i it seems to me like you're

592
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:07,840
careful

593
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:10,880
about separating those two

594
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:13,760
to a certain extent as opposed to people

595
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:14,000
who

596
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:17,360
jump into the meaning part you know

597
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:19,200
like a lot of my investigation up to

598
00:25:21,669 --> 00:25:20,720
this point has been in the near death

599
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,679
experience

600
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:23,679
and one of the reasons i like the near

601
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:25,039
death experience

602
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:27,039
is we can ground ourselves in some

603
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:28,480
science there

604
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:30,480
in some respects we have to say it's

605
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:32,000
very

606
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:34,480
faulty science because it's a science

607
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:36,320
based on the idea that consciousness

608
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:37,919
doesn't even exist

609
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:41,440
but even in falsifying that

610
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:43,679
premise falsifying that paradigm is a

611
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:44,960
huge step forward

612
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:47,200
so what the near-death experience does

613
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,400
is it

614
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:51,200
follows it from a just boots up or

615
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:53,760
bottom-up way of saying okay

616
00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:56,400
what is what were the vitals of that

617
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,960
person

618
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:58,799
before they had their cardiac arrest how

619
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:00,320
did we measure it afterwards

620
00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:03,760
and then what were they able to retrieve

621
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:04,200
in

622
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,919
chronicle i like the science of that

623
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:10,400
and i would even suggest that in the

624
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,039
last

625
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:13,919
10 years almost more than anything i can

626
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:14,960
think of

627
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:18,880
that science has changed the dialogue

628
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:20,480
in some fundamental ways that we don't

629
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:23,520
even realize around consciousness

630
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:26,000
the the materialistic consciousness is

631
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:27,200
illusion stuff

632
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:30,480
it just doesn't hold up and even the

633
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:31,200
people who are

634
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:33,520
spinning it out there you can see

635
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:34,960
they're kind of like

636
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:38,000
no that isn't going to work and

637
00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:41,279
i kind of think i shouldn't say i think

638
00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:44,559
i'm wondering and i'm hopeful that we

639
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:45,440
can make

640
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:48,720
just that similar kind of step with

641
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:51,279
these extended consciousness realms and

642
00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:52,080
i think you

643
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:55,520
have such a key role to play in that so

644
00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:58,799
it's not a matter of i want to

645
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:00,400
immediately as everybody does

646
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,080
ask you what it means what did that

647
00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:04,159
demon mean and why did it fly off the

648
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:04,880
thing and

649
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:06,960
is that real are we co-creators of

650
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:08,640
reality what about tulpas

651
00:27:13,269 --> 00:27:10,480
and all the rest of that kind of stuff

652
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:13,279
but i want to take a step back and say

653
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:16,960
how would we begin to in the best way

654
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:17,919
possible

655
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:20,880
just start mapping these realms in a way

656
00:27:24,389 --> 00:27:21,840
that might be

657
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:24,399
understandable and useful to us does

658
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:26,240
does that make sense what i'm

659
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:29,120
saying yeah i'm fascinated by science

660
00:27:33,029 --> 00:27:30,159
you know i'm a real

661
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:33,039
bit of a science addict and right from

662
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:35,200
the beginning i thought the best

663
00:27:38,310 --> 00:27:37,679
way to deal with this experience is to

664
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:38,320
be as

665
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:41,600
factual as i possibly can

666
00:27:47,669 --> 00:27:44,720
and just record it and ever since i saw

667
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:47,679
myself as a reporter rather than

668
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:51,760
a theoretician or somebody who

669
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:55,440
can make sense of it because there are

670
00:28:03,029 --> 00:27:58,559
a lot more people better qualified to

671
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:03,039
to evaluate or the data i see what i'm

672
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:04,159
producing

673
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:07,919
is basically data reports

674
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:11,760
you know and and there were some people

675
00:28:14,830 --> 00:28:12,240
who have

676
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:14,840
taken it as such and there were

677
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,240
scientists and

678
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:18,480
looking at it from purely from the

679
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:19,440
evidential

680
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:22,880
on the reporting aspect of it i

681
00:28:31,990 --> 00:28:28,000
i tried to in my books i tried to

682
00:28:34,389 --> 00:28:32,000
find some sense or come to some

683
00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:34,399
explanation in it but it never really

684
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:35,919
quite worked

685
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:38,960
because i'm an artist you know

686
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:43,200
i did i did meet tom campbell

687
00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:46,399
he has built his own uh model

688
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:49,679
of reality he's much better equipped to

689
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:50,720
do that

690
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:54,720
but when i look at all these models

691
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,320
in the end it comes always back to

692
00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:00,480
we just want to have a narrative we want

693
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:02,720
to make sense of it

694
00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:05,600
okay and we want the explanation we have

695
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:07,679
always done that we went

696
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,320
like the greeks they invented their gods

697
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:12,480
to make sense of reality

698
00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:16,159
and and we just still want to do that

699
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:19,279
but the difficulty is

700
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:22,720
the moment we dress it into

701
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:26,159
into this duality of words

702
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:29,919
we inevitably leave an aspect out

703
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,159
which is beyond it which cannot be

704
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,320
easily explained

705
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:36,559
and the moment we do that we start

706
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:37,760
limiting

707
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:41,520
these and and i found reality is a very

708
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:42,480
dynamic

709
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:46,080
process the moment the moment you try to

710
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:47,440
catch it

711
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:50,399
it's like herding cats you know the

712
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:51,200
moment you

713
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:53,440
you think i've got it all under control

714
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:54,880
now that's how it

715
00:30:01,909 --> 00:29:58,480
is a religion is born

716
00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:01,919
you know and so so one one possible

717
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,919
explanation for that in very simple

718
00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:05,520
terms is that

719
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:08,559
we are in the wrong dimension

720
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:11,679
to to do that just so let me hit you

721
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,799
with just you know work

722
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,399
i kind of set up that i wasn't going to

723
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:16,080
do this but i am going to do this kind

724
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:16,720
of just

725
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:19,679
ask you the question and then based on

726
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:20,480
your

727
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:22,640
experience what do you think do you

728
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:23,679
think

729
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:27,760
this is because this is like so commonly

730
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:30,080
expressed right the near what what you

731
00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:30,960
just said so

732
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:32,480
take your experience which is an

733
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:34,480
out-of-body experience which is

734
00:30:37,029 --> 00:30:35,279
different

735
00:30:38,549 --> 00:30:37,039
than a near-death experience we don't

736
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:38,559
know in what way it's different

737
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:40,720
but we accept going in that it's

738
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,159
different because you weren't dead at

739
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:43,840
the very least from a physiological

740
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:44,480
standpoint

741
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,520
and then we start seeing these

742
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:47,120
similarities like what you'll hear over

743
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,159
and over again is

744
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:50,640
a near-death experience will come back

745
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:52,000
and these are people who are truly dead

746
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:53,360
i always mention this because

747
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:54,799
people get hung up on this and they go

748
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:56,320
you don't realize they weren't really

749
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,200
dead it's like

750
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:59,679
really go talk to dr sam parnia the

751
00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:00,960
leading

752
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:02,720
resuscitation expert in the world and

753
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:04,000
also a near-death experience

754
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:06,080
and he'll tell you no these people were

755
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:08,159
more dead than most accounts we have

756
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:09,600
because we had them in a hospital and we

757
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:10,000
know

758
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:13,600
their the physical condition they were

759
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:14,720
in but i digress

760
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:16,880
only slightly people come back from

761
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:18,159
their near-death experience

762
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:20,000
and they say essentially what you just

763
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:21,760
said jurgen they say

764
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:24,799
i knew everything no sooner would a

765
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:25,440
question

766
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:28,159
enter my mind that i knew it and i knew

767
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:29,600
it more completely

768
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:32,480
than i could have even asked it but

769
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:32,960
don't

770
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:36,080
ask me to express it now because from

771
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:37,039
this

772
00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:43,279
and is that a hint that you know we're

773
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:44,240
always going to be

774
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,360
kind of handicapped maybe severely in

775
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:50,159
trying to explore that from this

776
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:50,880
dimension

777
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:53,200
would you have any thoughts on that yes

778
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:53,919
i think

779
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:56,880
that's that's a really big problem

780
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,080
that's why

781
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:01,120
i'm very keen um to use

782
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:09,269
to create to find a stimulus

783
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:12,159
for people to have their own experience

784
00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:12,880
really

785
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:15,039
the thing is for example you need to

786
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:16,559
have the experience

787
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,399
because um even skeptics who had the

788
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:22,240
near death experience

789
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:24,320
you know they would never have believed

790
00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:25,600
it before

791
00:32:29,669 --> 00:32:28,799
what they experienced and and there are

792
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:29,679
a number of

793
00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:33,360
nearest experiences who were skeptics

794
00:32:39,029 --> 00:32:36,799
and they were then changed people

795
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:39,039
and a lot of the things which i have

796
00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:41,440
experienced are very similar

797
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:44,799
to near-death experiences but i think

798
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:51,590
to focus on different strata of

799
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:52,960
consciousness

800
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,640
deliberately rather than being

801
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:56,640
catapulted into an

802
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:58,960
out of body state like a near death

803
00:33:02,470 --> 00:32:59,840
experience

804
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:02,480
i was able to focus my awareness quite

805
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:03,519
deliberately

806
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:06,640
knowing exactly what has happened to me

807
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:08,840
i could go into higher states of

808
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:11,440
consciousness and i could go down into

809
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:13,679
the lower state of consciousness

810
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:18,080
and and map everything out without

811
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:21,200
being fearful that i have died or not

812
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:21,919
you know

813
00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:24,399
and so there's a big difference in that

814
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:26,760
but but there are a lot similar

815
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:30,080
similarities you know so so

816
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:33,440
um yeah i mean from

817
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:39,909
it's so difficult so what i was thinking

818
00:33:43,909 --> 00:33:41,200
now

819
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:43,919
i'm i was hoping i can use virtual

820
00:33:48,159 --> 00:33:54,789
a tool which may allow people to trigger

821
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:57,269
an altered state of consciousness you

822
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:57,840
know

823
00:34:03,669 --> 00:34:00,559
and and i was encouraged when i first

824
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:03,679
came across virtual reality in 2014

825
00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:08,000
i created a kind of

826
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:11,200
tunnel experience which is very often

827
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:12,720
reported

828
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:16,000
and i tried to combine the tunnel

829
00:34:20,629 --> 00:34:16,879
experience

830
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:20,639
with the sounds which were

831
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:23,280
also going into a certain place it was

832
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:25,679
in the body which

833
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:28,159
you know have certain creates a certain

834
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:29,599
stimulus

835
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:32,639
and then being surrounded in this

836
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:34,639
virtual experience rather than

837
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:37,040
seeing it on a flat screen or just

838
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:38,879
listening to it

839
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:41,919
this uh extensive um

840
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:44,960
bombardment of stimuli

841
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:48,000
hopefully creates a

842
00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:51,839
trigger to an inner sympathetic

843
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:55,119
reality now the interesting thing was

844
00:35:02,710 --> 00:34:58,640
after i relay released the first

845
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:02,720
app of this tunnel experience

846
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,240
i was on a developers group

847
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:08,560
where all the techies hung out to work

848
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:09,280
with

849
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:12,400
virtual reality there were no

850
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:14,960
nobody was interested in any spiritual

851
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:17,280
experiences or anything

852
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:20,560
so i released this in the tech group

853
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:24,800
and soon enough i think there were about

854
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:28,320
3 000 downloads in the end and i had

855
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:30,000
some interesting comments some

856
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:32,800
people said it felt like a near-death

857
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:34,880
experience although they

858
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:37,920
they felt that is how it must feel if

859
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:38,480
you die

860
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:41,440
you know people said oh i lost total

861
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:43,200
sense of time

862
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:45,520
you know because the experience is such

863
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:47,760
it takes you out of the linear time

864
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:48,640
stream

865
00:35:55,829 --> 00:35:52,079
you you have no bearings you don't know

866
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:55,839
what's beyond it you're just in a tunnel

867
00:36:02,310 --> 00:35:58,960
literally in a tunnel vision and

868
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:02,320
and so i've taken this on and

869
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:04,640
and this morning i completed the second

870
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:07,359
experience which of course is based

871
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:10,640
based on everything i've done before

872
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:12,880
and i played it to my daughter who is a

873
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:14,160
yoga teacher

874
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:17,680
okay i wanted to have a first sort of

875
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:18,720
impression

876
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:20,960
and she actually reported there were

877
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:24,079
certain things happening inside her body

878
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:26,640
especially in the heart chakra she knows

879
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:28,160
all about these different

880
00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:31,200
energy centers and and she said she felt

881
00:36:35,270 --> 00:36:31,760
a very

882
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:35,280
powerful connection but she

883
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:38,640
which was like a forgotten memory

884
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:42,480
you know she didn't even know she had

885
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:45,760
and she connected to an archetype

886
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:48,560
and i think that is really important if

887
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:49,520
we can create

888
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,720
tools which uh allow

889
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:54,720
us to create a connection to our

890
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:57,200
archetypes and the archetypes become

891
00:37:03,589 --> 00:37:00,400
activated and take over

892
00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:03,599
then we have an experience and

893
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:06,839
and if we can make this experience

894
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:10,640
um you know independent of

895
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:13,200
let's say drugs or any any other sort of

896
00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:14,400
methods

897
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:17,200
then we can possibly give a large enough

898
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:18,160
large enough

899
00:37:22,750 --> 00:37:21,599
number of people the tools to report on

900
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:22,760
these

901
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,440
experiences they have and find a

902
00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:27,119
consensus

903
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:31,240
where scientists can say oh

904
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:35,440
statistically 75 percent have reported

905
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:38,320
such and such by using this tool

906
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:41,920
which opened their consciousness and and

907
00:37:45,829 --> 00:37:44,480
amongst these people so and so many

908
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:45,839
people experience

909
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:49,040
the light phenomena and other things

910
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:52,079
so we've got a much broader base to

911
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,520
create a science

912
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:55,440
based science on which is based on

913
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:57,040
statistics

914
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:00,320
people

915
00:38:06,870 --> 00:38:04,240
reporting the same phenomena in nature

916
00:38:09,349 --> 00:38:06,880
when enough people report the same

917
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:09,359
phenomena then science will accept it as

918
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:10,400
a given

919
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:13,280
you know and they rule out illusion

920
00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:14,320
delusions and

921
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:16,800
things like that yeah that's that's

922
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:17,520
terrific

923
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:20,560
and what a what an interesting place to

924
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:22,960
imagine that we might get very

925
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:23,680
encouraging

926
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:26,400
let me take this in a kind of another

927
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:27,200
direction

928
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:29,680
and i kind of tipped my hand at the

929
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:31,599
beginning of where i'm going

930
00:38:35,109 --> 00:38:33,839
and as i've gone down this thing of why

931
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:35,119
evil matters which is

932
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:38,640
my book no one quite gets it

933
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:40,880
they're always kind of they want they

934
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:42,160
get stuck on evil

935
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,640
and that's like it's not i'm not talking

936
00:38:47,829 --> 00:38:46,720
about evil i don't care about evil i'm

937
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:47,839
all about

938
00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:49,920
the opposite of evil whatever that is

939
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:52,640
without without having to define it

940
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:56,000
but what i think it does

941
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,000
is it is a lens another lens

942
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:02,800
into this extended realm that if we are

943
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:04,320
going to do the kind of

944
00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:06,880
mapping that you're talking about in the

945
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:07,920
broadest sense

946
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:09,760
and i love the way you brought science

947
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:11,520
into it where

948
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:14,960
you know i get the sense that you

949
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:17,920
have gained knowledge that informs your

950
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:18,480
life

951
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:21,119
on a daily basis and i can see like

952
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:21,520
you're

953
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:23,440
a family person and the love i can see

954
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:24,640
in your face when you talk about your

955
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:25,920
daughter you know

956
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:28,320
that is what you're about it it just

957
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:29,839
comes through

958
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:33,280
so i go to evil just because

959
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:34,960
i think we have to go there like one of

960
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:36,560
the interviews i have in

961
00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:39,599
in my book is with uh

962
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,320
a woman named annika lucas and i

963
00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:44,240
connected with annika because she's into

964
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:44,880
yoga

965
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:49,280
have been for the longest time

966
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:52,320
and annika's a very cool yoga teacher

967
00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:54,720
who's used it to really transform her

968
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:55,440
life

969
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:57,440
after some unbelievable trauma when she

970
00:40:01,829 --> 00:39:59,280
was a young child

971
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:01,839
and that trauma was that at six years

972
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:02,880
old

973
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:10,079
into a satanic ritual abuse cult

974
00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:12,400
and this is the cult that i always

975
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:14,000
mention this you know if you're

976
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:16,560
interested or want to fact check this

977
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:17,760
look in the 90s

978
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:19,839
this cult was all over the news in

979
00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:21,839
belgium because it went to the highest

980
00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:22,560
levels of

981
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:24,079
government throughout europe and they

982
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:26,240
were gonna you know drain the swamp get

983
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:28,000
these guys and all the rest

984
00:40:33,109 --> 00:40:31,200
and what they were doing to for for

985
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:33,119
purposes of our discussion they were

986
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:34,960
doing the worst of the worst

987
00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:38,000
but what they were doing was

988
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:40,480
trying to mess with these kids

989
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:41,839
consciousness

990
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:47,839
in a way that i later learned the reason

991
00:40:51,829 --> 00:40:49,760
why they do

992
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:51,839
try and promote disassociative identity

993
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:53,839
disorder and why they did it in the mk

994
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,800
ultra program

995
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:56,560
and i talked to a clinical psychologist

996
00:41:04,150 --> 00:40:58,079
named

997
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:04,160
patients for a long time and he's found

998
00:41:07,589 --> 00:41:05,599
a similar result

999
00:41:09,750 --> 00:41:07,599
in his communications with the extended

1000
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:09,760
realm and here's what's

1001
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:12,480
very dark but needs to be put on the

1002
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:13,440
table

1003
00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:17,040
is these folks are trying to connect

1004
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,000
with

1005
00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:21,040
extended realms we can only assume

1006
00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:22,720
from what you're saying that these are

1007
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:24,400
very dark

1008
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:27,680
low realms uh but

1009
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:30,240
that is part of this game apparently

1010
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,160
this is part of this terrain

1011
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:35,359
and i just i want to know

1012
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,560
if you have any insights into that part

1013
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:40,319
of it i don't want to stare into the

1014
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,200
abyss

1015
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:42,960
i don't want to dwell on it or talk

1016
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:45,440
about these horrific crimes which we all

1017
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:45,760
know

1018
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:48,800
exist i want to try and understand it

1019
00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:49,280
from an

1020
00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:52,319
extended consciousness realm that you've

1021
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:54,160
explored do you have any thoughts on

1022
00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:55,359
that

1023
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:58,079
yes i have had my own sort of encounters

1024
00:42:02,230 --> 00:41:58,640
with

1025
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:02,240
real

1026
00:42:07,349 --> 00:42:05,760
evil you know during these outer body

1027
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:07,359
experiences

1028
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:11,760
but um i always found

1029
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:16,640
it is identification gone wrong people

1030
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:20,000
who identify

1031
00:42:23,670 --> 00:42:23,359
first of all there's no way that you can

1032
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:23,680
go

1033
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:26,560
into a higher dimensional levels if you

1034
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:27,280
are

1035
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:30,800
holding on to an identification you know

1036
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:34,560
or to a kind of selfishness

1037
00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:37,920
or self-interest you know because that

1038
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:38,319
just

1039
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:45,589
going into a hot air balloon uh which is

1040
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:47,280
still tied to the ground

1041
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:50,640
you just cannot get out of this level of

1042
00:42:56,069 --> 00:42:52,560
consciousness

1043
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,079
my my encounter with evil came

1044
00:43:02,710 --> 00:42:59,440
when i you know after these

1045
00:43:05,829 --> 00:43:02,720
atrocities happened in 9 11 and the

1046
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:05,839
suicide bombing i was dead that keen to

1047
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:06,319
find

1048
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:11,119
out how do these people

1049
00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:14,400
believe they can go into paradise

1050
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:17,440
when they commit these

1051
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:21,040
unspeakable crimes

1052
00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:24,640
and and so one day i was taken

1053
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:27,760
i was an out of body experience and

1054
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:31,200
and i was taken into a very dark rail

1055
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:33,440
and it looked like a sort of victorian

1056
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:35,680
industrial wasteland

1057
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:41,589
the ground was covered in suit and

1058
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:42,720
debris and

1059
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:46,480
the horizon the sky was

1060
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:49,760
black with red flashes of lighting

1061
00:43:56,230 --> 00:43:52,800
big smoke belong it was like a picture

1062
00:43:59,910 --> 00:43:56,240
out of dante's infernal the proverbial

1063
00:44:03,510 --> 00:43:59,920
negative picture of hell and i thought

1064
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:03,520
god where where have i been landed here

1065
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:07,520
now you have to bear in mind that

1066
00:44:14,910 --> 00:44:11,200
i'm always in in this

1067
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:14,920
here now consciousness okay i'm not

1068
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:18,079
identified in the sense so

1069
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:21,280
so i still have the objective aspect

1070
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:23,040
viewing these things and i've

1071
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:25,040
encountered some very dark things

1072
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:26,720
without losing

1073
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:29,680
an ounce of my integrity or my

1074
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:31,040
connection to

1075
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:33,760
to my higher self you know but then i

1076
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:34,560
was led

1077
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:39,119
into this pit where

1078
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:42,720
there were piles of human bodies and

1079
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:45,839
out of these piles there was a guy which

1080
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:46,079
i

1081
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,000
these

1082
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:56,240
materialized thought forms of his

1083
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:58,240
victims

1084
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:01,599
and whenever he tried to pray to allah

1085
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:02,880
to relieve him

1086
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:06,400
of this pain he was in

1087
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:08,800
and it was it was a real physical pain

1088
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:10,560
and a mental pain

1089
00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:14,800
he he was confronted with the reality

1090
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:17,920
of his situation that he cannot undo

1091
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:18,960
what he has done

1092
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:22,800
so his he was in a feedback loop

1093
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:26,079
okay and this was a

1094
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:28,960
situation he couldn't get out of and

1095
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:31,200
then i saw there were other places like

1096
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:31,760
that

1097
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:34,880
and then this guy came to me a muslim

1098
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:36,720
guy

1099
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:40,319
with a turban and he was quite

1100
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:43,520
dirty from all the sword and he said

1101
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:46,079
please please help these people you know

1102
00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:47,280
he was trying to

1103
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:50,800
help them he was

1104
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:54,160
attacked by other people

1105
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:57,200
roaming around in this area

1106
00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:00,800
and and i think what what is happening

1107
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:04,640
inevitably with evil is an absence

1108
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:07,839
of awareness and

1109
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:11,760
because of this absence of awareness

1110
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:15,440
the focus is on things they can identify

1111
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,480
with and make sense of so they're

1112
00:46:23,349 --> 00:46:20,079
continuously looking for

1113
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:23,359
some form of gratification which

1114
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:27,520
enhances their identification with

1115
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:30,240
which was whatever they have grown fond

1116
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:31,200
of

1117
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:35,200
so they're forever trapped in this

1118
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:40,319
realm of identification and also

1119
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:43,440
there's no end to it when you think

1120
00:46:46,309 --> 00:46:43,920
you've

1121
00:46:47,670 --> 00:46:46,319
reached the end there's always another

1122
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:47,680
level where you can go

1123
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:50,640
even a little bit deeper you know a

1124
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:52,400
little bit darker

1125
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:55,119
and it's almost as if it's part of our

1126
00:47:02,950 --> 00:46:56,079
of consciousness

1127
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:02,960
explore wanting to find out

1128
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:06,720
you know and at any cost almost

1129
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:10,079
and i think the problem is that people

1130
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,440
instead of finding out the

1131
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:15,760
the string that connects them to their

1132
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:16,720
core

1133
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:23,359
they are entangled with strings of

1134
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:24,240
identity

1135
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:27,680
focus on other things which provide

1136
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:31,520
temporary gratification you know

1137
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:33,920
can i bounce something off you uh this

1138
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,960
is kind of another

1139
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:36,960
model but what you were just saying

1140
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:39,280
there in the strings thing kind of ties

1141
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:40,880
this let me just bounce it off you see

1142
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:42,480
what you think

1143
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:46,079
we are beings of light beings

1144
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:49,440
of connection with this infinite

1145
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:52,559
divine intelligence forgive me if those

1146
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:54,480
words kind of trigger people one way or

1147
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:55,119
another

1148
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:58,240
let's just say that's the model and

1149
00:48:01,829 --> 00:48:01,040
what we're really identifying with when

1150
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:01,839
we think of

1151
00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:10,000
really unhealthy behavior

1152
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:13,040
is a blockage of that energy and

1153
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:15,119
sometimes when that energy becomes

1154
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,160
blocked we just need we we so

1155
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:21,119
intensely want to get it out that we

1156
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:21,760
will take

1157
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:25,040
any path of getting it out and sometimes

1158
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:26,480
we connect that

1159
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:30,400
with energy from other places

1160
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:33,520
that are benevolent and dark

1161
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:36,079
and are stuck in that same pattern and

1162
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:36,800
actually

1163
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:40,319
identify with that pattern of blockage

1164
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:43,440
that we have and this is not

1165
00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:45,680
my model or my personal experience i'm

1166
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:46,559
trying to

1167
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,559
i guess recap and condense what i've

1168
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:50,240
heard from a couple of different people

1169
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,200
but in particular what i heard from dr

1170
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:54,960
tom zinzer who is this

1171
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:58,079
clinical psychologist which for 15 years

1172
00:49:01,750 --> 00:49:00,480
we worked with people in deep deep

1173
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:01,760
hypnotherapy

1174
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:05,839
under a psychologically

1175
00:49:09,589 --> 00:49:08,480
rigorous clinical model but he'll be the

1176
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:09,599
first one to tell you

1177
00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:12,640
he went completely off reservation and

1178
00:49:16,950 --> 00:49:13,280
that

1179
00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:16,960
he had the assistance of a spirit guide

1180
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:20,079
who was instructing him in how to

1181
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:23,920
help these people and the diagnosis was

1182
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:26,160
that kind of like you're talking about

1183
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:29,200
in the sandbags on the air balloon

1184
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:32,960
the ego states that they had created

1185
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:35,359
sometimes very innocently as a child you

1186
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:36,319
know afraid

1187
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:39,200
and then you know develop that little

1188
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:40,079
kind of

1189
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:42,559
wrinkle in the consciousness that kind

1190
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:44,319
of becomes a little bit of this

1191
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:46,880
traumatized individual and then and

1192
00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:48,480
sometimes for some people

1193
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:50,800
it's a lot worse or it's just a mild i

1194
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:52,559
need to be of the protector i need you

1195
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:55,040
know all these different

1196
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:57,280
shadows to put it in kind of jungian

1197
00:50:01,030 --> 00:49:58,079
terms you know

1198
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:01,040
all these different ego states that we

1199
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:03,680
create that we haven't fully resolved

1200
00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:07,119
become blockages of energy and

1201
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:08,960
but here's the key thing that he said

1202
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:10,559
that i guess i want to get your opinion

1203
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:13,119
on just straight away

1204
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:16,640
he suggested a certain science to that

1205
00:50:23,349 --> 00:50:20,240
in that those ego states

1206
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:23,359
if they become developed and if they are

1207
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:24,400
connected to

1208
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:27,680
a negative energy field can actually be

1209
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:29,040
entry points

1210
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:32,400
for entities that are stuck on these

1211
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:33,440
lower levels

1212
00:50:39,589 --> 00:50:36,720
that want to connect with this

1213
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:39,599
level and that can create a lot of you

1214
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:40,800
know

1215
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:43,760
pretty unhealthy bad stuff for people

1216
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:45,440
and we could go in and chronicle that

1217
00:50:47,910 --> 00:50:47,040
and here i'm not talking about the worst

1218
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:47,920
of the worst

1219
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:50,079
i'm just talking about this is being

1220
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:52,880
widely widely reported and i think

1221
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:56,240
misunderstood in terms of the role that

1222
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:59,040
might these other entities that we don't

1223
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:01,040
fully even understand

1224
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,800
might be playing does it does any of

1225
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:04,720
that uh zenet fit

1226
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:06,720
at all with what you your understanding

1227
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:08,160
of things yes very

1228
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:11,040
much so i mean um what i found out is

1229
00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:12,400
that the

1230
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:15,119
these are negative entities of which

1231
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:17,119
there are many if you get to a certain

1232
00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:18,079
level

1233
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:26,319
they can only connect to you if you have

1234
00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:29,040
a similar spot inside you you know they

1235
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:31,040
can anchor into

1236
00:51:34,829 --> 00:51:33,119
if you don't have the any of these spots

1237
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:34,839
they're totally

1238
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:37,280
helpless for example when i went into

1239
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:38,160
this

1240
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:42,000
uh darker rain with suicide

1241
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:46,000
bombers where there were also some

1242
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:49,280
some isis fighters

1243
00:51:54,390 --> 00:51:52,160
people with machine guns and things you

1244
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:54,400
know running around looking for enemies

1245
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:55,119
finding them

1246
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,200
in in in the form of their thought forms

1247
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:02,240
you know and they looked very real to

1248
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:03,040
them

1249
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:06,160
and then they they tried to attack me

1250
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:08,800
and shoot me with their machine guns

1251
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:11,119
but as soon as they trained the machine

1252
00:52:15,190 --> 00:52:12,480
gun on me

1253
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,200
the bullet sort of plopped out of the

1254
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:17,520
nozzle and fell to the ground

1255
00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:20,319
there was nothing they could hang on to

1256
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:20,640
and

1257
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:25,520
continuously looking for

1258
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:28,720
um for a victim

1259
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:32,160
who has got these sort of dark aspects

1260
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:35,680
within them or

1261
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:39,119
compatriots you know they can they can

1262
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:41,680
identify as an enemy so they they're

1263
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:43,920
keeping themselves to themselves very

1264
00:52:48,390 --> 00:52:45,040
much

1265
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:48,400
and i had some interesting experiences

1266
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,440
for um there was a

1267
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:54,000
woman which i reported in my book she

1268
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:55,040
died of a

1269
00:53:01,430 --> 00:52:58,319
heroin overdose and

1270
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:01,440
before she died she had a very very

1271
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:02,720
negative life

1272
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,839
she was in an in dependency situation

1273
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:08,240
she was

1274
00:53:15,829 --> 00:53:13,280
very dark place and when i saw her

1275
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:15,839
she looked like a zombie you know she

1276
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:16,559
was

1277
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:20,400
very dark

1278
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:24,720
and she i could immediately see

1279
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:28,000
where she came from because when

1280
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:31,280
i'm in this state i have

1281
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:34,800
um i've got access to

1282
00:53:38,549 --> 00:53:36,880
to the people you know to the knowledge

1283
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:38,559
for this sort of combined this

1284
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:41,119
is i immediately get a sort of um

1285
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:43,200
information download

1286
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:46,960
what had happened to her anyway i

1287
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:51,040
then um i felt really sorry for her so i

1288
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:52,559
i went up to her and i

1289
00:53:55,990 --> 00:53:55,119
i asked her whether she knew that she

1290
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:56,000
was dead

1291
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:58,160
and she thought she was just in a bad

1292
00:54:01,829 --> 00:53:59,119
dream

1293
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:01,839
you know and i said no sorry you you're

1294
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:03,040
dead you know and

1295
00:54:08,309 --> 00:54:06,319
and she started crying and she um

1296
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:08,319
she was in a terrible state so i put my

1297
00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:11,520
arm around and i started talking to her

1298
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:15,280
and he gradually walked kept walking and

1299
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:16,000
as we

1300
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:19,040
as i was talking

1301
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:21,839
her skin sort of cleared up she became

1302
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:23,040
better

1303
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:25,760
the atmosphere became lighter it was

1304
00:54:31,349 --> 00:54:27,760
like morning

1305
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:31,359
and then we ended up in a park with

1306
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:34,079
green grass and trees and she was

1307
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:35,520
completely

1308
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:38,079
restored to her normal self by the time

1309
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:39,599
we arrived there

1310
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:43,119
so so once this sort of identification

1311
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:44,640
is broken

1312
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:48,720
we can get we can step out of this

1313
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:51,280
role playing we have adopted or this

1314
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:52,640
this habit

1315
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:54,880
we have entered into you know or we have

1316
00:54:59,190 --> 00:54:57,520
been conditioned into

1317
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:59,200
and when that happens of course it

1318
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:01,599
becomes very quickly very clear that we

1319
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:03,280
are in a much better

1320
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:06,880
more powerful state you know and

1321
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:09,119
inevitably the people i met on the lower

1322
00:55:20,470 --> 00:55:17,030
narrow bandwidth of of their mind

1323
00:55:21,270 --> 00:55:20,480
and they felt they may have felt very

1324
00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:21,280
powerful

1325
00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:22,880
because they had a lot of people under

1326
00:55:27,829 --> 00:55:25,440
their control of that train

1327
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:27,839
but they were in a very narrow bandwidth

1328
00:55:32,069 --> 00:55:28,720
of uh

1329
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:32,079
freedom you know they were very limited

1330
00:55:38,789 --> 00:55:35,440
and and the moment this

1331
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:38,799
is pierced the the moment they show a

1332
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:42,720
sign of a need of wanting to

1333
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,240
break out that can be used as an anchor

1334
00:55:49,510 --> 00:55:48,799
for anybody who is sort of coming along

1335
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:49,520
and and

1336
00:55:55,589 --> 00:55:52,960
gradually string them out of it and i i

1337
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:55,599
gave an example in my book business of

1338
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,160
infinity of one of these rescue missions

1339
00:56:01,750 --> 00:56:00,880
you know so i don't know whether that

1340
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:01,760
answers any

1341
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:04,880
any of your points you you just

1342
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:08,880
made earlier it does it was

1343
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:11,680
incredibly powerful hey a couple of big

1344
00:56:15,990 --> 00:56:13,280
picture questions

1345
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:16,000
i think we can assume the answer here

1346
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:17,920
but i don't want to assume

1347
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:21,760
i want to hear your take

1348
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:25,119
hierarchy of consciousness again

1349
00:56:31,829 --> 00:56:28,559
you know it's just baffling to me

1350
00:56:35,190 --> 00:56:31,839
that we live in this super scientific

1351
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:35,200
age where biological robot meaningless

1352
00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:35,920
universe

1353
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:38,960
meme still carries the day if you're in

1354
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:40,160
academia they

1355
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:43,280
completely deny it but let's get past

1356
00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:45,280
that because we are past that

1357
00:56:49,030 --> 00:56:47,520
and then let's even embrace the idea as

1358
00:56:49,349 --> 00:56:49,040
we have in this interview that there are

1359
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:49,359
these

1360
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:52,799
extended consciousness realms if we draw

1361
00:56:56,630 --> 00:56:53,359
a big

1362
00:56:58,069 --> 00:56:56,640
circle around all that does there seem

1363
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:58,079
to be a hierarchy to

1364
00:57:01,510 --> 00:57:00,880
it and the trigger word that we don't

1365
00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:01,520
want to say

1366
00:57:06,230 --> 00:57:03,839
is god but because if there is a

1367
00:57:08,630 --> 00:57:06,240
hierarchy that kind of suggests that

1368
00:57:10,870 --> 00:57:08,640
or is it just kind of this blob of

1369
00:57:12,390 --> 00:57:10,880
consciousness that doesn't really have

1370
00:57:15,670 --> 00:57:12,400
we couldn't really attach

1371
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:18,390
hierarchy hierarchical kind of structure

1372
00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:19,440
to it

1373
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:22,240
yeah i have to say i never really found

1374
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:22,880
a word

1375
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:26,000
for for my experiences

1376
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:28,720
of higher consciousness you know even

1377
00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:30,559
when i was sort of faced

1378
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:34,000
this is incredible light as i said on

1379
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:35,440
the ocean

1380
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:38,559
the thought never occurred to me to use

1381
00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:40,240
the word god

1382
00:57:46,789 --> 00:57:43,680
i had i had an experience when i wrote

1383
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:46,799
uh the 10 minute moment where i've

1384
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:48,559
meditated

1385
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:51,440
and i suddenly was gripped by an intense

1386
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:52,880
fear

1387
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:00,789
being dissolved and not only

1388
00:58:08,309 --> 00:58:04,720
lose my ego but lose everything

1389
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:08,319
my my existence and i

1390
00:58:15,030 --> 00:58:11,520
i felt if i go one step further

1391
00:58:18,069 --> 00:58:15,040
there will be god you know

1392
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:18,079
and and and whatever this

1393
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:21,520
is it will just obliterate me

1394
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:24,720
so this fear started

1395
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:28,079
developing within me and and

1396
00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:31,760
that was the only time i felt oh

1397
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:35,280
uh yeah there must be god

1398
00:58:41,349 --> 00:58:38,640
okay but the funny thing was um

1399
00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:41,359
i spent the rest of the day hunting for

1400
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,040
my ego

1401
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,599
trying to find some form of identity i

1402
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:47,520
could feel comfortable with

1403
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:49,359
you know i didn't want to go anywhere

1404
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:50,559
near and i felt

1405
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:52,960
i spent all my life looking for this big

1406
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:54,640
thing and looking for god

1407
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:57,760
and now he is sort of waiting in the

1408
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,559
ring and i get scared and run a mine

1409
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:02,319
the interesting thing was of course it

1410
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:04,640
was all in my mind

1411
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:08,400
you know and the thing was the next day

1412
00:59:12,390 --> 00:59:11,040
um i went to sleep i finally calmed down

1413
00:59:16,069 --> 00:59:12,400
i went to sleep i had some

1414
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,079
illuminating dreams and the next morning

1415
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:19,200
i woke up and i was

1416
00:59:22,390 --> 00:59:21,119
i had this sort of 10 minute moment

1417
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:22,400
experience

1418
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:25,440
you know again there was no there was no

1419
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:26,960
way i could

1420
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:30,240
find a word for it but the the idea of

1421
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:32,960
the hierarchy has always

1422
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:34,799
the feeling of a hierarchy has always

1423
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:37,760
evaded me because

1424
00:59:43,589 --> 00:59:40,960
there's only being

1425
00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:43,599
and that's all i can come up with it's

1426
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:44,559
just

1427
00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:49,119
pure and simple being there's an it-ness

1428
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:52,480
and i can't find a name for it other

1429
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:54,160
than the

1430
01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:57,599
the reality that i am

1431
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:00,640
and and it's everywhere

1432
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:03,760
i can look at this glass of water

1433
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:06,960
and it's just confirmation that it

1434
01:00:13,349 --> 01:00:10,079
is and this is ever how

1435
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:13,359
how far i ever got to that

1436
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:16,640
um that's that's awesome i don't know i

1437
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:18,720
don't want to pull you into saying stuff

1438
01:00:21,910 --> 01:00:20,640
beyond that i will share with you a

1439
01:00:25,109 --> 01:00:21,920
story that

1440
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:25,119
from a recent interview i had that

1441
01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:27,359
gets at this same thing a different way

1442
01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:28,480
and i was entering this

1443
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:30,720
really wonderful guy english guy david

1444
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:32,240
ditchfield and he had this incredible

1445
01:00:35,589 --> 01:00:33,440
he's also an artist

1446
01:00:37,829 --> 01:00:35,599
which is part of his story he has this

1447
01:00:40,549 --> 01:00:37,839
incredible near-death experience

1448
01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:40,559
where he's pulled under a commuter train

1449
01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:42,160
he's going to kiss his girlfriend the

1450
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:42,559
door

1451
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:44,559
closes on his jacket like everyone's

1452
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:45,760
worst fear

1453
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:47,760
and he's dragged under this train and he

1454
01:00:50,710 --> 01:00:48,799
dies

1455
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:50,720
and he has this incredible experience

1456
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:53,040
since then no artistic talent before

1457
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:53,599
that

1458
01:00:59,910 --> 01:00:57,440
now he draws these huge huge

1459
01:01:01,589 --> 01:00:59,920
large scale paintings but that's kind of

1460
01:01:03,589 --> 01:01:01,599
a side story

1461
01:01:05,589 --> 01:01:03,599
because david comes back and he

1462
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:05,599
understands his experience as being a

1463
01:01:10,789 --> 01:01:06,559
very christian

1464
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:10,799
experience in seeing jesus and seeing

1465
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:13,599
jesus creating universes and stuff like

1466
01:01:17,670 --> 01:01:13,920
that

1467
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:17,680
you had an

1468
01:01:20,950 --> 01:01:19,520
experience with christ consciousness he

1469
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:20,960
goes no no don't say christ

1470
01:01:24,069 --> 01:01:22,079
consciousness it was

1471
01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:24,079
jesus you know like son of god kind of

1472
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:26,079
thing and i said

1473
01:01:30,309 --> 01:01:28,480
david here's what i've learned studying

1474
01:01:32,470 --> 01:01:30,319
near-death experiences

1475
01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:32,480
is that one when people study them

1476
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:33,680
across culture across

1477
01:01:36,870 --> 01:01:36,319
time a lot of these religious figures go

1478
01:01:38,789 --> 01:01:36,880
away

1479
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:38,799
but more significantly from a meaning

1480
01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:40,319
standpoint david

1481
01:01:44,710 --> 01:01:42,160
when i talk to people that have had

1482
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:44,720
multiple near-death experiences

1483
01:01:48,069 --> 01:01:47,040
they often tell me that the in the first

1484
01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:48,079
experience

1485
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:53,680
all that wonderfulness of christ

1486
01:01:57,990 --> 01:01:54,960
consciousness

1487
01:02:01,029 --> 01:01:58,000
but in subsequent experiences it goes

1488
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:01,039
deeper it doesn't

1489
01:02:04,710 --> 01:02:03,760
it doesn't contradict their initial

1490
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:04,720
experience

1491
01:02:08,789 --> 01:02:06,400
but they get the sense that there is

1492
01:02:12,309 --> 01:02:08,799
more beyond that there's deeper

1493
01:02:12,630 --> 01:02:12,319
and higher forms of experience again to

1494
01:02:15,029 --> 01:02:12,640
me

1495
01:02:15,670 --> 01:02:15,039
that's a language that's a hierarchical

1496
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:15,680
language

1497
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:17,440
and david's response was to go

1498
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:20,000
absolutely i do feel that that is true

1499
01:02:23,349 --> 01:02:22,400
so there's a slight contradiction in how

1500
01:02:26,549 --> 01:02:23,359
he's thinking about it but

1501
01:02:29,109 --> 01:02:26,559
who am i to pick apart you know what

1502
01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:29,119
what his experience is yeah it's a

1503
01:02:35,109 --> 01:02:31,280
really interesting story i

1504
01:02:38,589 --> 01:02:35,119
i can synthesize with that because

1505
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:38,599
a friend of mine and i we went in

1506
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:42,480
2017 to greece we wanted to

1507
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:45,760
go on a kind of pilgrimage you know to

1508
01:02:52,309 --> 01:02:49,200
revisit the ancient sites delphi

1509
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:52,319
oracle and and we ended up

1510
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:56,319
in mount artos and and that is a story i

1511
01:03:01,270 --> 01:02:57,839
could write a whole book about

1512
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:01,280
because i'm not a christian my father

1513
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:02,480
was an atheist

1514
01:03:06,150 --> 01:03:04,559
my mother was a christian but i wasn't

1515
01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:06,160
brought up as a christian

1516
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:09,280
in a kind of belief bubble

1517
01:03:17,349 --> 01:03:15,039
so so we went into this monastery

1518
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:17,359
we didn't have any bookings and it was a

1519
01:03:23,109 --> 01:03:19,039
bit of an adventure how

1520
01:03:24,549 --> 01:03:23,119
furby ended up but i made friends with a

1521
01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:24,559
monk

1522
01:03:29,029 --> 01:03:28,160
um and we had the most fascinating

1523
01:03:36,470 --> 01:03:29,039
conversation

1524
01:03:39,670 --> 01:03:36,480
to to me why don't you

1525
01:03:41,910 --> 01:03:39,680
come to one of these chapters normally

1526
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:41,920
people are not allowed into it it's only

1527
01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:43,680
for ordained monks

1528
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:45,920
but i think i make an exception because

1529
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:48,640
we had such an interesting conversation

1530
01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:51,280
and and i made quite clear to him that

1531
01:03:55,510 --> 01:03:52,880
i'm not a christian

1532
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:55,520
that i've never been sort of taken to it

1533
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:58,000
the only thing i like

1534
01:04:01,990 --> 01:04:01,440
is the early christian art he said come

1535
01:04:05,589 --> 01:04:02,000
with me

1536
01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:05,599
i show you some of these icons

1537
01:04:10,829 --> 01:04:08,559
so he took me into this chapel and this

1538
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:10,839
is absolutely true he took me to this

1539
01:04:15,750 --> 01:04:12,400
chapel

1540
01:04:17,990 --> 01:04:15,760
and it was quite dark and he seated me

1541
01:04:20,470 --> 01:04:18,000
in front of an icon i couldn't see it

1542
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:20,480
because it was too dark he lit the

1543
01:04:24,829 --> 01:04:23,760
candelabra he lowered it down in front

1544
01:04:29,430 --> 01:04:24,839
of this

1545
01:04:33,270 --> 01:04:29,440
icon and it was a the virgin mary

1546
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:33,280
was a jesus child

1547
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:38,160
and before i knew i was overcome

1548
01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:43,200
this total emotion and i had a breakdown

1549
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:46,720
and i suddenly had this

1550
01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:50,240
i had an ecstatic experience

1551
01:04:58,390 --> 01:04:54,160
i felt an overwhelming love

1552
01:05:00,630 --> 01:04:58,400
and and that you could have hit me

1553
01:05:03,029 --> 01:05:00,640
you know this was a feather i i just

1554
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:03,039
couldn't

1555
01:05:09,349 --> 01:05:06,960
there was no rational explanation to it

1556
01:05:11,349 --> 01:05:09,359
and i started crying i i felt so

1557
01:05:14,069 --> 01:05:11,359
overcome i started crying and then

1558
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:14,079
my friend he went out and and the monk

1559
01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:15,760
went out to leave me

1560
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:18,880
leave me on my own and then he came back

1561
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:19,920
in

1562
01:05:24,150 --> 01:05:22,720
and and he said you're okay aren't you i

1563
01:05:27,190 --> 01:05:24,160
said yes yes thank you

1564
01:05:31,829 --> 01:05:27,200
and i sort of didn't speak about it

1565
01:05:34,069 --> 01:05:31,839
and then and then to make matters worse

1566
01:05:38,789 --> 01:05:34,079
he said well it's quite interesting i

1567
01:05:43,270 --> 01:05:41,670
and then he let me into this other

1568
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:43,280
chapter

1569
01:05:50,470 --> 01:05:46,319
which had an icon of the um

1570
01:05:53,270 --> 01:05:50,480
of a saint um anastasia she was tortured

1571
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:53,280
to death in the third century

1572
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:55,520
and the picture and the same thing

1573
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:56,400
happened

1574
01:06:03,750 --> 01:06:00,000
overwhelmed by this

1575
01:06:06,710 --> 01:06:03,760
incredible love but

1576
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:06,720
the the other thing that happened was i

1577
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:09,760
went back the next day

1578
01:06:15,589 --> 01:06:13,520
uh the monk wasn't there the other monks

1579
01:06:17,430 --> 01:06:15,599
totally forbid me to go anywhere near

1580
01:06:19,109 --> 01:06:17,440
the chapel i was not allowed in there i

1581
01:06:21,270 --> 01:06:19,119
said i've got to go back in i want to

1582
01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:21,280
find out more about it

1583
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:24,400
so then i saw a monk up on a balcony he

1584
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:26,240
killed himself laughing because i was

1585
01:06:30,789 --> 01:06:27,680
trying to explain

1586
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:30,799
you know to him what i wanted so he

1587
01:06:36,710 --> 01:06:33,440
he then relented he allowed me back in

1588
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:36,720
and i meditated in front of the same

1589
01:06:42,789 --> 01:06:39,920
uh icon and suddenly

1590
01:06:44,870 --> 01:06:42,799
there was this woman standing right next

1591
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:44,880
to me

1592
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,280
i couldn't see her physic uh you know

1593
01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:49,839
with my eyes but i felt her presence

1594
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:52,160
and she said very clearly i'm still

1595
01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:53,280
alive

1596
01:06:59,510 --> 01:06:57,839
case

1597
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:59,520
then people who have an of body

1598
01:07:04,069 --> 01:07:00,880
experience

1599
01:07:05,829 --> 01:07:04,079
i'm sure if they meet jesus they

1600
01:07:08,789 --> 01:07:05,839
absolutely need jesus

1601
01:07:09,589 --> 01:07:08,799
because there is no such thing as death

1602
01:07:12,950 --> 01:07:09,599
okay

1603
01:07:18,069 --> 01:07:12,960
now the interesting thing was

1604
01:07:19,829 --> 01:07:18,079
this woman for six months

1605
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:19,839
i only had to think of her and she was

1606
01:07:27,750 --> 01:07:21,599
right beside me

1607
01:07:35,109 --> 01:07:30,789
death is just a massive illusion

1608
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:35,119
okay we are not we are not able to

1609
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:38,170
go beyond our physical senses once you

1610
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:39,680
[Music]

1611
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:44,400
bridge the gap and you become

1612
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:48,079
familiar with the expanded reality

1613
01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:50,240
then there is no mystery it's all

1614
01:07:54,549 --> 01:07:51,440
reality and

1615
01:07:57,510 --> 01:07:54,559
people are only a thought away so

1616
01:07:57,910 --> 01:07:57,520
when people report these i mean if you

1617
01:08:00,230 --> 01:07:57,920
had

1618
01:08:01,510 --> 01:08:00,240
told me that about 10 20 years ago i

1619
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:01,520
would say yes

1620
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:03,760
slightly crazy it's all an illusion you

1621
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:06,079
know they're making it up

1622
01:08:11,270 --> 01:08:09,440
but i'm not so sure anymore you know

1623
01:08:13,109 --> 01:08:11,280
well you're not so sure anymore but

1624
01:08:16,630 --> 01:08:13,119
you're not a christian

1625
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:16,640
no so i mean i think

1626
01:08:20,709 --> 01:08:18,640
i don't know why i get into this people

1627
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,719
think i'm a christian pastor

1628
01:08:24,870 --> 01:08:22,799
and i'm not i'm just always saying i'm

1629
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:24,880
highly respectful of your christ

1630
01:08:27,590 --> 01:08:25,679
consciousness

1631
01:08:29,590 --> 01:08:27,600
experience and i'm not trying to limit

1632
01:08:31,990 --> 01:08:29,600
that or pigeonhole that or say that

1633
01:08:35,349 --> 01:08:32,000
that's somehow lesser i'm just saying

1634
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:35,359
isn't that i mean you didn't you didn't

1635
01:08:38,149 --> 01:08:35,920
meet

1636
01:08:39,829 --> 01:08:38,159
christ in it wouldn't make any sense to

1637
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:39,839
say you met christ so it was in this

1638
01:08:44,550 --> 01:08:42,719
extended consciousness realm and you met

1639
01:08:45,430 --> 01:08:44,560
christ i don't know exactly what that

1640
01:08:49,030 --> 01:08:45,440
means but i

1641
01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:49,040
accept the reality to that what i don't

1642
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:51,440
understand and what just seems

1643
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:54,880
like ridiculously obvious to me

1644
01:08:58,550 --> 01:08:57,359
in the same way it seems absurd to think

1645
01:09:00,789 --> 01:08:58,560
that science could

1646
01:09:02,149 --> 01:09:00,799
continue to prop up this consciousness

1647
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:02,159
is an illusion thing

1648
01:09:06,149 --> 01:09:03,839
it's just like there's something deeper

1649
01:09:08,630 --> 01:09:06,159
going on there that's more than just

1650
01:09:10,709 --> 01:09:08,640
a meme that is a conscious effort on

1651
01:09:13,829 --> 01:09:10,719
some people to systematically

1652
01:09:16,950 --> 01:09:13,839
control people because that's a better

1653
01:09:18,390 --> 01:09:16,960
way to keep people afraid and scared and

1654
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:18,400
buying and not

1655
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:21,040
you know thinking too deeply about stuff

1656
01:09:23,669 --> 01:09:22,000
you know you know

1657
01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:23,679
that's that's my take on it where i want

1658
01:09:25,749 --> 01:09:24,960
to really tie this back to you was

1659
01:09:28,950 --> 01:09:25,759
religion

1660
01:09:29,430 --> 01:09:28,960
because where i'm thinking lately is

1661
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:29,440
that

1662
01:09:35,110 --> 01:09:33,279
religion is similarly absurd

1663
01:09:37,269 --> 01:09:35,120
in the sense that if we come to the

1664
01:09:38,149 --> 01:09:37,279
understanding like we're talking about

1665
01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:38,159
here

1666
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:42,239
your

1667
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:45,199
by all accounts the highest purpose of

1668
01:09:50,149 --> 01:09:46,400
your life

1669
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:50,159
is to connect with this

1670
01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:53,359
super light love energy

1671
01:09:57,430 --> 01:09:55,360
in whatever form and you're doing

1672
01:09:58,550 --> 01:09:57,440
they're doing a vr to try and help

1673
01:10:00,950 --> 01:09:58,560
people do it and

1674
01:10:01,669 --> 01:10:00,960
your daughter's doing yoga classes right

1675
01:10:03,830 --> 01:10:01,679
we're doing it

1676
01:10:05,270 --> 01:10:03,840
and these monks are trying to help

1677
01:10:08,709 --> 01:10:05,280
people do it

1678
01:10:09,510 --> 01:10:08,719
but religion is kind of doing a little

1679
01:10:11,189 --> 01:10:09,520
trick there

1680
01:10:13,669 --> 01:10:11,199
they're saying hey we can help you do

1681
01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:13,679
that but by the way

1682
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:16,400
we are going to limit how you how we

1683
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:17,840
will be

1684
01:10:21,590 --> 01:10:19,360
i mean this is always the case with

1685
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:21,600
religion this is the cult part of it

1686
01:10:27,510 --> 01:10:24,960
we will be the sole keepers

1687
01:10:28,790 --> 01:10:27,520
of your access to that and we will say

1688
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:28,800
how you access it

1689
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:30,880
and how you don't access it and we will

1690
01:10:34,950 --> 01:10:31,840
similarly

1691
01:10:37,030 --> 01:10:34,960
control and

1692
01:10:38,470 --> 01:10:37,040
manipulate you in a way that seems

1693
01:10:39,830 --> 01:10:38,480
completely unnecessary

1694
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:39,840
that's why the important part of your

1695
01:10:45,189 --> 01:10:42,080
story is you can have that experience

1696
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:45,199
and accept the christian experience and

1697
01:10:50,550 --> 01:10:47,520
say but that doesn't make me a christian

1698
01:10:53,350 --> 01:10:50,560
no that's the thing i mean the the main

1699
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:53,360
issue that is always gets lost is

1700
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:54,480
liberation

1701
01:11:01,590 --> 01:10:59,040
it's a freedom aspect in relation um

1702
01:11:02,550 --> 01:11:01,600
there's always this sort of tendency of

1703
01:11:13,270 --> 01:11:02,560
wanting to

1704
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:13,280
limit limited but at the end

1705
01:11:20,189 --> 01:11:16,960
the end result is liberation from all

1706
01:11:23,350 --> 01:11:20,199
concepts from all

1707
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:23,360
demarcations is total liberation

1708
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:26,800
if that aspect is missing then

1709
01:11:36,470 --> 01:11:33,430
not seeing the bigger picture not

1710
01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:36,480
fulfilling our whole potential

1711
01:11:40,870 --> 01:11:38,560
to me that has always been the number

1712
01:11:44,149 --> 01:11:40,880
one thing is a freedom

1713
01:11:47,830 --> 01:11:44,159
it grants us the freedom to

1714
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:47,840
go beyond our limitations go beyond

1715
01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:51,199
our identifications and be

1716
01:11:58,390 --> 01:11:54,719
able to dynamically experience

1717
01:12:01,910 --> 01:11:58,400
a new world every moment every day

1718
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:01,920
okay without without any boundaries

1719
01:12:08,149 --> 01:12:04,880
without saying oh this is how it is

1720
01:12:10,310 --> 01:12:08,159
you know this is what is all about no

1721
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:10,320
we just sort of discovering it again and

1722
01:12:14,870 --> 01:12:11,360
again new

1723
01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:14,880
because we are now part of that thing we

1724
01:12:22,709 --> 01:12:16,480
are discovering

1725
01:12:25,750 --> 01:12:22,719
ourselves which is it

1726
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:25,760
okay and there when there

1727
01:12:32,070 --> 01:12:28,800
lies a incredible liberation

1728
01:12:35,669 --> 01:12:32,080
and also there lies the ecstasy

1729
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:35,679
it brings this ecstasy to be found in

1730
01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:36,880
living

1731
01:12:44,229 --> 01:12:40,880
every moment because we are not tied

1732
01:12:47,430 --> 01:12:44,239
up we are not tied to one single things

1733
01:12:51,590 --> 01:12:47,440
to to one belief to one theory

1734
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:51,600
to one model we transcend that and we

1735
01:12:57,669 --> 01:12:52,239
are opening

1736
01:13:01,510 --> 01:12:57,679
ourselves up to be explorers

1737
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:01,520
not knowing what is to come next

1738
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:03,840
and it's beautiful because we already

1739
01:13:08,310 --> 01:13:05,040
know

1740
01:13:11,830 --> 01:13:08,320
we are it and we cannot get

1741
01:13:14,709 --> 01:13:11,840
lost whatever we explore

1742
01:13:17,990 --> 01:13:14,719
and discover is another level of our

1743
01:13:22,870 --> 01:13:18,000
ecstasy of our ecstatic living

1744
01:13:25,910 --> 01:13:22,880
and and any beliefs which don't allow us

1745
01:13:29,030 --> 01:13:25,920
this exploration of freedom

1746
01:13:31,189 --> 01:13:29,040
uh they're just limiting us and that's

1747
01:13:35,270 --> 01:13:31,199
why

1748
01:13:38,310 --> 01:13:35,280
i'm not anti-religious because um

1749
01:13:41,510 --> 01:13:38,320
they they they do explore

1750
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:41,520
give people um stepping stones

1751
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:43,679
you know but when you come to the last

1752
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:45,120
stepping stone

1753
01:13:49,510 --> 01:13:47,760
or they let's say they're they create a

1754
01:13:52,149 --> 01:13:49,520
scaffolding

1755
01:13:53,430 --> 01:13:52,159
you know which we but once we build the

1756
01:13:56,390 --> 01:13:53,440
sculpture

1757
01:13:56,950 --> 01:13:56,400
we don't need the scaffolding you know

1758
01:14:02,070 --> 01:13:56,960
we

1759
01:14:04,390 --> 01:14:02,080
you know that's that's the thing with

1760
01:14:07,430 --> 01:14:04,400
religions that's why i find

1761
01:14:09,590 --> 01:14:07,440
i find them always limiting but

1762
01:14:11,750 --> 01:14:09,600
but religious people don't like to talk

1763
01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:11,760
about freedom

1764
01:14:15,510 --> 01:14:14,080
you know they don't like that word very

1765
01:14:17,830 --> 01:14:15,520
much

1766
01:14:18,630 --> 01:14:17,840
juggernaut they goes absolutely

1767
01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:18,640
wonderfully

1768
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:21,760
beautiful so fantastic and i can't think

1769
01:14:26,470 --> 01:14:24,000
of a better way to

1770
01:14:28,229 --> 01:14:26,480
wrap up this terrific conversation

1771
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:28,239
you've treated me to

1772
01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:31,360
can you tell folks a little bit about

1773
01:14:34,870 --> 01:14:33,199
what else is going on in your world how

1774
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:34,880
they might keep track of

1775
01:14:38,870 --> 01:14:37,760
what you're doing and i definitely want

1776
01:14:40,470 --> 01:14:38,880
to point them to those

1777
01:14:42,630 --> 01:14:40,480
youtube videos you did that were

1778
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:42,640
fantastic what else do they need to know

1779
01:14:47,270 --> 01:14:44,159
about

1780
01:14:49,990 --> 01:14:47,280
yes i mean i belong to a group

1781
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:50,000
of afterlife researchers which is very

1782
01:14:53,669 --> 01:14:51,520
interesting it's a very interesting

1783
01:14:56,950 --> 01:14:53,679
beautiful group because

1784
01:15:00,149 --> 01:14:56,960
they explore the whole whole territory

1785
01:15:03,430 --> 01:15:00,159
of the afterlife and i've been a member

1786
01:15:06,950 --> 01:15:03,440
and once a month i that people

1787
01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:06,960
gather questions and and i try to answer

1788
01:15:11,030 --> 01:15:07,760
them from

1789
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:11,040
my sort of experience and and that's

1790
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:12,320
really interesting

1791
01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:16,400
because um some of these questions

1792
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:18,320
allow me to bring out things which are

1793
01:15:21,590 --> 01:15:19,920
not widely known

1794
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:21,600
you know and and therefore there's

1795
01:15:27,030 --> 01:15:23,760
always something new coming out

1796
01:15:29,990 --> 01:15:27,040
the other thing is um

1797
01:15:30,950 --> 01:15:30,000
yeah i mean because i mean mainly an

1798
01:15:34,470 --> 01:15:30,960
artist

1799
01:15:36,870 --> 01:15:34,480
and the virtual reality is what uh

1800
01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:36,880
what i'm really sort of at the moment

1801
01:15:41,110 --> 01:15:38,320
exploring

1802
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:41,120
and i had a lot of help people trying to

1803
01:15:45,030 --> 01:15:42,000
uh

1804
01:15:48,149 --> 01:15:45,040
make it possible for me to

1805
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:48,159
to go into any depths so hopefully

1806
01:15:52,310 --> 01:15:51,600
um i will be able to find some very

1807
01:15:54,630 --> 01:15:52,320
practical

1808
01:15:55,590 --> 01:15:54,640
and very illustrative ways of taking

1809
01:15:58,790 --> 01:15:55,600
people

1810
01:16:00,870 --> 01:15:58,800
into uh realities via documentation

1811
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:00,880
which they can experience

1812
01:16:04,709 --> 01:16:03,600
and and hopefully it will lead a bit

1813
01:16:07,030 --> 01:16:04,719
further than that

1814
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:07,040
you know hopefully i mean the ultimate

1815
01:16:11,510 --> 01:16:08,640
goal would be to

1816
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:11,520
devise a tool which hopefully will

1817
01:16:16,709 --> 01:16:14,320
trigger lucid dreams in people

1818
01:16:17,669 --> 01:16:16,719
that that is the goal so people have

1819
01:16:19,590 --> 01:16:17,679
connected with

1820
01:16:20,709 --> 01:16:19,600
their own experience first of all by

1821
01:16:23,910 --> 01:16:20,719
getting

1822
01:16:27,590 --> 01:16:23,920
a much closer feeling of

1823
01:16:30,630 --> 01:16:27,600
an alternate reality by maintaining uh

1824
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:30,640
wakefulness okay but in alternate

1825
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:31,920
reality

1826
01:16:35,110 --> 01:16:34,080
and therefore making it easier to make

1827
01:16:37,270 --> 01:16:35,120
the jump

1828
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:37,280
into the dream consciousness and then

1829
01:16:40,229 --> 01:16:39,360
perhaps trigger a lucid dream and that's

1830
01:16:44,070 --> 01:16:40,239
what i'm

1831
01:16:46,229 --> 01:16:44,080
i'm aiming for well that's just

1832
01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:46,239
fantastic work i mean anyone who isn't

1833
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:48,480
excited about all those things man that

1834
01:16:52,630 --> 01:16:51,840
could be truly culture changing history

1835
01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:52,640
changing

1836
01:16:56,870 --> 01:16:55,280
although we don't know what effects

1837
01:16:57,669 --> 01:16:56,880
those kind of things have but we have to

1838
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:57,679
go forth

1839
01:17:04,310 --> 01:17:00,960
and try the best we can our guest again

1840
01:17:06,550 --> 01:17:04,320
has been jurgen ziva it's terrific

1841
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:06,560
terrific to connect with you

1842
01:17:11,030 --> 01:17:08,400
thanks again jurgen so much for joining

1843
01:17:14,070 --> 01:17:11,040
me thanks alex so it's a great pleasure

1844
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:14,080
talking to you thank you thanks again to

1845
01:17:16,870 --> 01:17:15,840
your gonziva for joining me today on

1846
01:17:18,709 --> 01:17:16,880
skeptico

1847
01:17:21,030 --> 01:17:18,719
the one question i have to tee up and

1848
01:17:21,990 --> 01:17:21,040
it's not i guess so much of a question

1849
01:17:24,310 --> 01:17:22,000
really but

1850
01:17:25,189 --> 01:17:24,320
what do you make of jurgen's experience

1851
01:17:31,669 --> 01:17:25,199
of

1852
01:17:33,910 --> 01:17:31,679
there's something there that i think is

1853
01:17:35,110 --> 01:17:33,920
central to this whole thing that we're

1854
01:17:38,229 --> 01:17:35,120
talking about

1855
01:17:41,669 --> 01:17:38,239
and jurgen is such an awesome embodiment

1856
01:17:43,270 --> 01:17:41,679
of what he's talking about isn't he

1857
01:17:45,030 --> 01:17:43,280
so what do we think of that what do you

1858
01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:45,040
think of that is that

1859
01:17:50,950 --> 01:17:48,480
too light in love for you or

1860
01:17:52,310 --> 01:17:50,960
how do you process that let me know your

1861
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:52,320
thoughts i'd love for you to jump over

1862
01:17:55,830 --> 01:17:53,840
to the skeptical forum and

1863
01:17:57,669 --> 01:17:55,840
leave a comment there leave a note there

1864
01:17:59,590 --> 01:17:57,679
really dig into it

1865
01:18:01,270 --> 01:17:59,600
but if you're not so inclined find

1866
01:18:03,430 --> 01:18:01,280
another way to

1867
01:18:05,189 --> 01:18:03,440
telepathically send me a message and

1868
01:18:07,750 --> 01:18:05,199
tell me what you're thinking

1869
01:18:09,830 --> 01:18:07,760
as always thanks so much for joining me

1870
01:18:13,030 --> 01:18:09,840
on this little journey that i'm on

1871
01:18:14,550 --> 01:18:13,040
and for sharing it with others who you

1872
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:14,560
think need to hear it

1873
01:18:24,830 --> 01:18:19,290
until next time take care and bye for